So I got an email from Doghouseboxing.com telling me Chris had replied. While I was tempted to let things go I figured I would take one last shot in pursuading him to look at things from my point of view. Here is my response below with a few extracts from his article.
“Barrera 29″
“A very old 29. When you turn pro at 15, and fight a ton of wars, you are only 29 in number…”
Like Bernard Hopkins Marco Antonio Barerra has prolonged his career by changing from fighter to boxer. Even after Barrera was crushed by Manny Pacquiao he was able to move up in weight to win the Super Featherweight title and successfully defend it until he fought Juan Manuel Marquez in 2007.
“Knocked him out, when Calzaghe didn’t.”
“No one is saying Calzaghe is a better pound for pound puncher, but he takes guys to school at the highest level available to him (which is comparable toPacquiao’s overall). Pacquiao even has a draw against Agapito Sanchez, and he lost to an aging Morales. He does slip. That you cannot argue with.”
I have already stated that I don’t think his level of competition is comparable. I will admit that Calzaghe has put in some very good performances against Jeff Lacy and Mikkel Kessler. He dominated against Roy Jones in a fight I consider meaningless after Jones had been KO’d by both Tarver and Johnson and I felt he pressured Hopkins well in a very close fight.
The Doctor stopped Pacquiao fight with Agapito Sanchez due to an accidental clash of heads, it was a technical draw not much the Pacman could do there. And he did lose to Morales and had a host of excuses afterwords which very few believed until he faced El Terrible and took him to pieces. TWICE!
“Hopkins was 43″
“…Did you just miss Hopkins schooling of Kelly Pavlik? Hopkins was made to look old and discombobulated, because Calzaghe was that good. Calzaghe is 37 himself, and no spring chicken, and he was still outfighting the legends.”
Granted it was an excellent performance by Hopkins. But as the Executioner said Styles make fights while I thought Hopkins would beat on Pavlik for the first 5 or 6 rounds he proved me wrong by doing it all night. However I think you’re forgetting the Hopkins vs Calzaghe fight result had quite a few people divided. It was a close split decision where Calzaghe (who is 36) pressed the fight and threw a lot to land a little while Hopkins landed the cleaner better shots and fought in spurts. I didn’t come away from that thinking “JoeCalzaghe is amazing…” No I thought a few years ago maybe 6 when Hopkins was 37 he would have taken Joe apart.
“Lacy and Kessler were unproven.”
HELLO??
“Can you say Prince Naseem Hamed? Kessler and Lacy had beaten only contenders and fractional belt holders before, just the like the Prince. If you are going to toutBarrera for that win, then give Calzaghe his due.”
I wasn’t touting Barrera I was advocating Pacquiao. The facts are at the time, that was the second biggest win of Barrera’s career and it wasn’t just what he did but how he did it, shocking the boxing world by changing from pressure fighter to boxer.
“David Diaz is Nicolai Valuev”
“What?? The leap to Heavyweight from where Calzaghe is, is 50-75 pounds. Pacquiao moved 5, and now 12. And he’s gonna get beat. Calm down.”
Well if Calzaghe started at 168lbs its actually 33 pounds as the Cruiserweight limit is 200lbs. Manny started out at 106lbs and is now fighting at 135 so that’s 29lbs…Guess I should of said Cruiserweight..still by Pacquiao fighting Oscar De la Hoya at 147lbs he will have moved up 41lbs in total. Insane I know but that’s why he is P4P number one, he dares to be great.
“…Calzaghe also boasts wins over Eubank, Robin Reid, and Charles Brewer. Other fractional belt-holders of his era. That puts his record at 7-0 there. Can Pacquiao say that?”
None of those guys had a belt when Calzaghe fought them. They had all been defeated by fighters who didn’t have much of a name… the most famous probably being Sven Ottke and Steve Collins.Pacquiao has beaten 9 title holders in his career. In 4 Different weight divisions. Including three guaranteed Hall of Fame fighters. He may not be as slick or as smart as Joe but he has achieved more and has done nothing which makes me doubt his credentials enough for Calzaghe to dislodge him as P4P #1.
Pacquiao should be remembered as an all-time great, and yes, many greats have losses, because THEY ALL FOUGHT EACH OTHER BACK THEN! To be unbeaten still does mean something, if it is legitimate (see SvenOttke and JC Chavez for exceptions), and when you compare opposition, it is similar enough that Calzaghe’s unblemished record, plus level of dominance, puts him above Pacquiao.
An unblemished record? Dominance? Most of the names on Sven Ottke’s record are on Joe Calzaghe. And Ottke may have a few disputed wins of his record ,like a win over Robin Reid but wait! So does Joe Calzaghe. Calzaghe has made his mark in the last few years of his career against Jeff Lacy who had less fights than Prince Naseem had knock outs and Mikkel Kessler who has now come out with a reason or two for his defeat. Now I am not dismissing these wins as I was impressed by both. For me though they arent enough for me to rate him above the Pacman… I won’t list Pacquiao’s achievements again as we are now just going over old ground.
“You accuse me of being Welsh (I’m not), but who has replaced logic with ethnocentric fanaticism more than Brits, Mexicans, and lately Filipinos?Chavez, Hatton, Trinidad, Pacquiao were/are all great, but very overrated. Calzaghe proved his worth to everyone. Not just his own people.”
I am all for people getting behind their local fighters but thats another post entirely. My comments are purely as a boxing fan and I rate Manny Pacquiao’s achievements above Calzaghe’s. I am not the only person who has Pacquiao above Calzaghe in the mythical P4P rating and in retrospect I guess it boils down to what you look for in fighter.
That being said I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. You think Manny Pacquiao is overrated I think Joe Calzaghe is overrated
PART ONE Who’s #1? Manny Pacquiao or Joe Calzaghe.
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Mao Chu – RE: Who’s #1? Manny Pacquiao or Joe Calzaghe.
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November 29, 2008 at 3:16 am |
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December 24, 2008 at 10:46 am |
All those touting Calzaghe are kidding… he was nothing until 2008 where he fought two over-the-hill fighters who were in it for the money. He spent most of his career fighting nobodies in Britain (why didn’t come to the US much earlier? Answer: he is a cat!). Pacquiao has come out of abstract and foist himself in big time boxing. Why couldn’t Calzaghe do the same? Why did it take him so long to make his mark – and against a 43 yr Hopkins and an ageing Jones? The point is that there will always be question marks over Joe’s “greatness”. There are NO question marks as to Manny’s legacy! This shows when both give interviews… Calzaghe is always defensive, always being questioned about his legacy. Pacquiao is always gracious, there never are any questions about his legacy and his greatness. He made sure of his legacy by fighting in the big time in his prime… As for Calzaghe… both Hopkins and Jones showed enough to suggest that they both would have smashed Joe had the fight occurred 5-6 years ago – especially Hopkins who I thought won the fight. Both Jones and Hopkins will always be regarded as greater than Calzaghe… So those fights proved absolutely nothing. Calzaghe continuously makes excuses for his non-appearance in the big time… With Manny: he was there when it counted. So there is no contest about who is #1 P4P. That is Manny… In fact, I think this forum is silly for even raising the question.