I was skimming across a few boxing websites and I came across the following article on DogHouseBoxing.com. I felt he was so wrong that that it would be wrong for me not to reply.
By Chris Strait, SocalFightFan on Doghouse Boxing (Nov 26, 2008)
‘…Manny is being advertised as the best fighter around now… a couple years ago, his case was better than Calzaghe. That is no longer the situation…. I believe Calzaghe stands clearly alone.’
Now I couldn’t think of anything that Joe Calzaghe had done in the last couple years to match, nevermind exceed Manny Pacquiao’s achievements so I read on, Chris made three points.
1) Barrera and Morales were no less over the hill when they fought Pacquiao, than Hopkins and Jones were when they fought Calzaghe. Pacquiao’s wins against fellow stars are therefore no more impressive than Calzaghe’s.
WOW! I was now thinking: is this guy Welsh? Related to Calzaghe? Blind? or Stupid? Marco Antonio Barrera was 29! When Pacquiao beat him, He had won his last 8 fights which included schooling Featherweight Power Puncher Prince Naseem Hamed and exacting revenge on his Mexican rival Erik Morales! He also scored a number of wins over the top featherweights at the time. Its true Bernard Hopkins was seen as the LightHeavyweight king, but he was 43!!! And in reality Hopkins has only ever faced one legitimate LightHeavyweight in Antonio Tarver. By mentioning Roy Jones and Erik Morales you are asking “who is more washed up” a tough one, the fact is Manny did to Erik what no-one else was able to do STOP him. Joe didn’t come close to stopping the 39yr old Roy Jones who had looked fragile since his first KO defeat to Antonio Tarver and fought the championship rounds with one eye.
2) Pacquiao has losses. Calzaghe doesn’t. Period. Not that Pacquiao’s losses don’t come with slight asterisks (low blow, drained from weight loss, close decision), but he does/can slip. Calzaghe always comes through, no matter what.
OK, I read this and wondered how you got to write an article on Doghouse boxing? Did you win a prize? Did you just discover boxing? Is this joke I just don’t get? You need to learn there is more to boxing and measuring a fighters merits than just an “0″! Why don’t you check out the records of Henry Armstrong, Sugar Ray Robinson, Muhammed Ali and Sugar Ray Leornard. All of whom were defeated at one point and are rated by most if not all above Calzaghe on the ALL TIME P4P list. You should try considering the fact that THIS YEAR Manny Pacquiao won a title in his fourth different weight division, by KO. If Calzaghe had beaten David Haye and then Jumped up to Heavyweight divison to stop Valuev (who could be the David Diaz of the Heavyweight division) I MAY rate him abovbe Pacquiao but he didn’t!
3) Calzaghe can say he beat top contemporaries like Lacy and Kessler, in dominating fashion. Pacquiao’s only contemporary championship level opponent was Marquez, and his record there is 1-0-1. Either fight could have gone to Marquez, also.
Marquez is a master boxer who I also rate above Calzaghe in the p4p stakes. Sure Calzaghe was the first to expose the much hyped Jeff Lacy and I give him credit. He also looked good agaisnt Mikkel Kessler BUT who else have these fighters beat? What else have they achieved? Marquez is a three weight division world champion! Kessler and Lacy were merley title holders in a division which is mainly ignored. Bottom line is Calzaghe is and will be remembered as a very good fighter whereas Manny Pacquiao will be remembered as a Great fighter!
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November 28, 2008 at 1:01 pm |
After I read your post it was obvious you are no better than the guy you criticized. So I felt compelled to do what you did. Although I don’t agree with him 100% he had some valid points. It’s just the way you went after him. I’ll explain. Before I do let me just mention one thing. Boxing is very subjective. It’s hard to be right when it’s all a matter of opinion, and perception. There are exceptions however when things are clear cut, beyond a shadow of a doubt. Like being knocked out for instance. Can’t argue there. So with that being said I’ll proceed.
Now I couldn’t think of anything that Joe Calzaghe had done in the last couple years to match, nevermind exceed Manny Pacquiao’s achievements so I read on, Chris made three points.
Stop right there. Foul on the play! What exactly has pac done in the last two years? Yes he did beat e.m twice but let’s not forget em beat pac first. Pac made some adjustments, got sleep, and was pampered everytime he sneezed. If you keep fighting the same guy eventually you will figure out how to beat him. Maybe they should fight a 4rth time just to make sure pac can beat him. He beat marquez but not really(very controversial). He got schooled again. One knockdown does not win the fight. I think the judges were a little more generous this time around. Marquez seems to be the guy who has his number, but is aging himself and never really seemed strong enough. Then there was the rematch with barrera. Which looked more fixed than the rate on my mortgage. My opinion is that pac took it easy on barrera. That’s the way it looked. Pac could have pulled the trigger anytime he wanted but chose not to. This was not a fight to be proud of. It stunk. Hector Velasquez, sorry but no, also not an achievement. As was the case with the fight when he handpicked oscar larios (who?) to fight in front of his hometown. A fighter whose best fights were behind him. Again, he could have pulled the trigger but chose not to. Chalk that one up to a “gift” to his people. Not exactly a barn burner, see where I’m going with this? Most recently the fight with david diaz (again, who?). The only significance is that pac earned a belt in another weight division, I know, I know. Give me a break. Are you seriously considering this as one of his astonishing achievements? To quote you ” WOW! I was now thinking: is this guy Phillipino? Related to Pacquiao? Blind? or Stupid?”. His last two years were not as good as you think. Come on. David Diaz. Just like you said about kessler and lacy the same applies here, “who has david diaz, jorge solis, hector velasquez fought. In fact you can say that about any fighter. Think about it. Who has marquez fought. We need to ask ourselves “what are we asking when we ask who has he fought”? Is this based on celebrity status, popularity or record? I go with the latter. If you look at all their fighters records for the past two yrs you’ll see they are very similar. Another thing I noticed is that why does pac just seem to fight the same fighters over and over. It’s boring. What’s the point if it was a blowout the first time (of course money)? People say pac got better with new skills the third time fighting em. Yeah, he got better…and beating morales. He should after three times. You look at Calzaghes last 2 yrs fights, not one rematch. This kind of stuff helps you be number one. So I don’t understand why you discredit joe. What achievements of pacs are you talking about? He won. That’s what matters, right? Well, so did joe. Only he never lost. His skills were all he needed to win all his fights. Pac had to lose first (morales)and learn how to box between fights (this is another little thing that helps make you number one) It’s obvious he still lacks technical skill. Only if you fight a david diaz skills don’t matter. He wins with his tenacious, “I gotta get you first” style. Of course his god given speed and power are main factors but is lacking technically.
I somewhat agree with you on the age factor. Barrera was 29 and pac 25, a 4 year difference. Roy jones 39, joe 36 a 3yr difference. The point here is that there was no advantage due to age for either fighters. It’s not like JC was 21 and roy 39. They were both older so it balances out. Why is roy so worn out anyways? There should be no excuse. B-hop is older and in much better shape, and even started boxing before roy. Roy never had any hard fought battles to speak of, so why are people saying he’s shot?
Don’t try to downplay B-hop. He’s done what neither of these fighters ever did, and probably never will. He didn’t lose and held the title for more than twelve years. Now that is an achievement. pac,morales,barrera,marquez, how long did they hold their titles for? Any other fighters on pacs list that can make that claim? I didn’t think so. There’s more. Guess who else has held their title for a long time. That’s right the real number one. Calzaghe.
You mention pac was able to do what no one else was able to do with morales (although it took him two tries). Why do you only tell half the story? You left out that morales did what no other fighter was able to do to pac. He decisioned him.
You compare the wrong fighters? Why didn’t pac stop oscar larios, or morales in the first fight? I think your problem is that you are biased towards pacs tenacious, unforgiving fighting style(which we all like, and good for boxing) and it’s like all fights must end with someone knocked out. How do I know, because the way you expressed that “joe didn’t even come close to knocking out roy”. Like that’s the way it has to be. Well contrary to this belief you don’t have to win by knock out. I, like most people around us, was just amazed to see that someone actually did what no other fighter has been able to do with roy. He made him look like a fool with his own game. Joe actually left his head in front of roys, un-guarded. Can pac beat someone with their own style? He only has his one style. Again, another small item that makes a fighter number one. Joe didn’t have to knock roy out anyways. The humiliation was worse than a knockout. Oh and give me a break. Your going to tell me that poor roy jones had to fight the championship rounds with one eye? You think about that? What you don’t give joe credit for making roys eye that way? That’s what usually happens when the number one fighter hits you on the eye. Remember, pac and calzaghe have different styles. Joe is a technician/counter and pac is a brawler. It can’t be compared like that. Joe never said he was a power puncher and pac never said he was the smartest fighter out there. Joe is good at figuring out your style and then attacking. What he lacks in power he makes up in volume of punches.
What problem do you have with number 2 ? He’s not lying. Your response is rude and uncalled for but that’s you. I can say something similar about you. That you need to learn that there is more to boxing than just knocking out your opponent. Did you just learn boxing? Your obviously a pac fan. Aren’t we talking about who is number one. You agree with that right? Answer this then, all those boxers you mention, armstrong, ali, robinson, sugar ray leonard, now what happened to them when they lost? They weren’t number one anymore. That’s how it goes in all sports. Come on did you just learn boxing? That’s why you shouldn’t get offended by number 2. You fail to realize when determining who’s number one it’s important to know the losses one has. It has alot to do with it. Save the speech on how “it’s not important how many losses a fighter has, it’s how he rebounds from it” because that’s not valid in this case.
Don’t get me wrong. I’m happy for pac that he attained another belt in a different weight. It’s just the guy he fought was weak. I knew from the beginning he was no match for pac. You think otherwise? Your in denial. Come on. He did exactly like roy did when he moved up to heavyweight. It’s all politics. He didn’t choose a fighter from the top shelf. No, no,no. He picked the easiest. That’s the best way to put it. Think about this. Conventional wisdom says that as you move up in weight the harder it will get. That diaz fight had to be pacs easiest fight of his career. Who are you kidding? You’re not fooling anybody (wow, what an accomplishment).
On number 3, you need to do more research my friend. Kessler had been the wbc,wba super middleweight champ,and international champ for about 3 or 4 yrs. He unseated an upcoming undefeated fighter librado andrade. Anthony mundine, manny sciaca all with good records. Your probably saying “who” but like I said I can say the same thing for every fighter. Not everyone you fight is a champion. You need to understand that just because a fighter doesn’t fight in the u.s. doesn’t mean the quality level is not great. If that were the case then pac wasn’t a good fighter until he came to the usa. So we need to erase all his records? He was a champ at 19 yrs old. That’s an accomplishment, but it doesn’t count because that was in the phillipines…what? oh it counts now? So give credit where credit is due. Not everyone can fight in the u.s. That’s not there fault. There are good fighters all over the world. Pac is proof, and kessler is also one of them. Now about jeff lacy well, I just remember when everyone over rated him (including myself, I didn’t think Joe had a chance) because he was knocking guys out, Scott Pemberton, robin reid, omar sheika, syd vanderpool, better than average but not outstanding fighters. Lacy at best is a fighter who would give anyone a hard time. He’s not easy.
Why do you call kessler and lacy merely titleholders (in a division mainly ignored). Come on kessler is in a different country but held wba,wbc titles which are not ignored (you need to do some research), lacy didn’t get much of anything, I admit. “Merely a titleholder” describes marquez also. Only he held the title longer. Think.
I disagree with what you say about pac being remembered as a great fighter. He beats 3 good fighters and he is considered a great fighter? I think it’s just that you are a biased pac fan. Brawlers usually don’t get that type of recognition. He’s a good brawler. If he never came to the u.s. would you consider him a great fighter? I also think it depends on who you ask. Of course if I ask a pac fan they will say he was the greatest. Same can be said of joe. If you ask an englishman, chances are you get the same response. Like I said, boxing is subjective.
November 29, 2008 at 1:29 am |
Your post was longer than mine Tommy. So excuse me for not addressing every point. As you stated boxing is subjective and I will agree to disagree with Chris. For the record I am english and have seen more Joe Calzaghe contests than Manny Pacquiao so I feel I am coming from a solid knowledge base when it comes to Joe. I am not a huge Manny Pacquiao fan and routed for all three of the HOF mexican fighters he beat and I agreed with your point that he took the easy option in facing David Diaz. Still coming up from 106lbs to win a title at 135lbs is not an everyday occurance. Obviously there are question marks around Pacquiao like there is agaisnt every Great fighter. I just have more in regards to Joe Calzaghe and Chris and I presume your assetian that he is the number 1 boxer in the world. I could go on all day but here in short:
There are no doubts Joe Calzaghe is a skilled fighter BUT
Up until his win against Jeff Lacy the names on his recored were no better than Sven Ottke’s (who stopped Anthony Mundine) another unbeaten Super Middleweight. As a result Joe has been able to remain fresher longer.
His debateable win over Hopkins was based on this effective pressure and superior stamina pure and simple. While Joe was not landing clean at 43 Hopkins was forced to concede rounds as he could not sustain the pace.
My main issue is the value given to Calzaghe’s expected win over Roy Jones! Lets be honest this fight was meaningless. Post Ruiz Roy Jones lost about 30lbs of Muscles and his spark. Both Antonio Tarver and Glenn Johnson showed us this years ago. Nothing Roy did in between those two knockouts and his fight with Calzaghe justified him being in the ring that night, the truth is he was only there because he use to be boxings superman.